A vitally important place to air your emotions, how you feel and what you think!
The F4J Have Your Say area is simply a place for everyone where you get the Freedom, Peace, Love and Respect to share what's going on for you.
There is no right or wrong about what you say or how you say it —
the main thing is you let it out!
So have your say, vent your spleen, say your peace, let your feelings, emotions and thoughts run free as opposed to bottling it up causing ill health in you and for others.
Chances are there is somebody relating to exactly what's happening or of concern to you. What you say may very well help others as well as yourself. Once we all realise we are not alone and we are all in this together in one form or another, as living men and women with fundamentally the same psychological and biological structure, a great sense of relief and peace can come from this knowing.
However, the only condition in this forum is we ask you not to identify family members by their true names. Not because of man made rules, fear or ignorance, but purely based on respect for yourself, your family and reasons of higher good, else you're free to let loose.
This Have Your Say section is an open forum and not censored as such giving you the freedom to let rip with whatever's on your mind.
So with all that out of the way.... Go straight to writing a comment now
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420. Be Strong - By:SG66 from WA, Australia on October 31, 2019 @ 4:22 pmIt's hard enough for them as it is.
Think of them ,it keeps me going.
call me for a chat, anyone.
I'm here to help and listen.
Shane
0419926521
It's time for a revolution, isn't it?"??????
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Tit 4 Tat - By:Victoria from Canberra, Australia on November 7, 2019 @ 6:33 pmUnfortunately I had a drug problem a couple of years ago and "tough love" approach was put in place to encourage me to become sober. It worked. Then, my child's father whom of which I asked to be the main carer of our child took the opportunity to slander me, take FVO out on me, but then ensured that people believed I was a danger to myself and others, my family disowned me, my contact with them is minimal, I have lost friends whom I had been friends with for 20years, I had been robbed, lied about, used as a scape goat, basically gang-stalked and although my behaviour wasn't the most appropriate, it did provide "proof" for him to claim all his lies about me.
He also claimed that I was a prostitute and thief, he contacted my new employer and told them these lies and exaggeration of twisted truth and when I had finally thought there was some relief he now has our child brain washed and forced to say certain types words to put me into a head spin. He refuses to acknowledge that I am her mother, claims that I haven't been a mother her entire life, he would agree to a visit and then cancel and tell others that I never see her, which in part is truth but not by my choice! I have gone to police to seek assistance as he is bound by the same terms of the FVO and is emotionally controlling me, telling me this will never end, he wants me permanently out of his and her life and will make sure he does everything possible to achieve this goal, I have it all in text, yet local police appear to be disinterested and have claimed it's difficult to charge someone who has micro reversed a family violence order?
He has full custody of our child, and I don't want our child to not have him in her life but where do I get to seek help and how? After 10 years I finally had a mental breakdown and after all the years he fucked up he is under the impression and ensuring others are too, that I am the worst and most dangerous person around?
He constantly tells me to kill myself and his antics to make sure that I am isolated makes me want to.
I have written on here to ask for information on getting actual support that will put my childs right first and allow her to have her mother in her life? Please help!
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SURVEY - By:CAMS Australia from vic, australia on June 18, 2019 @ 12:11 amWe are reaching out to all, please participate in the following survey to help research the top identifying changeable factors of Child Support.
It is completely anonymous, multiple choice and will take approx 2 minute to complete. Make you opinion count!
http://www.poll-maker.com/Q3UGYFJ
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Ex bought a house, now wants me to pay - By:Dan from QLD, Australia on May 19, 2019 @ 1:58 pm3
Shooting to Speak - By:David Kallenbach from queensland, Australia on March 24, 2019 @ 9:10 pmNot many can identify or name two of the victims. Everyone it seems knows a “strong woman” on their side. She is playing politics.
Arden won't mention the "killer" by name. She wants him to be blotted out of history. That's where the problem lies. We all know him, and social media searches for his name have grown larger than the hits from people watching the shooting on YouTube. She threatens Facebook in a PR stunt. She became PM of New Zealand courtesy of Facebook and other social media.
The shooter like many of those from Columbine and before to Christchurch were raised by single mothers or a dominant mother and imbued with a hatred for men. Raising people without a voice according to many of the most celebrated psychiatrists of our time including Thomas Szaz, will likely force them to find an alternative means more effective and sensational to speak with.
The shooter in Christchurch simply found a ‘barrel of fish’ in the Christchurch mosque. Feminists, bleeding hearts, pro immigration, the unions and the labour party placed them on a pedestal in. At the same time they ignored the plight of the most marginalized in our midst, the white male. It is he that others have bled resources from. Our governments using them as human shields did it without the people's consent.
Australia's courts, its family courts in particular, rely on feminist ideology and theories rather than on the law. Men mainly white men suffer. the most marginalized people in Australia today are young and middle aged white men.
Language control (politically correct enshrined in legislation) has now become a tool of oppression. It is easier for a refugee or migrant of colour (Chinese included) to obtain a job along with women (unqualified) than it is for a white male to these days. But you are not allowed to say so lest you be considered an extremist, misogynist, sexist, racist or a white extremist.
When you suppress the voices of men (or anyone else) for too long, they will find a more radical and offensive means to be heard by. Often the barrel of an automatic assault rifle.
As the Palestinian hijacker of a BOAC VC10 said in 1972 before blowing it up in the Jordanian desert, “there are no innocent bystanders in this war”.
Stand up, be heard, be ridiculed for a short time but let your MP know he won't be getting your vote. Let the Union movements know that you are withdrawing your membership. Spread this around.
Christchurch is not the last. If we allow government's to continue and to rule without true consensus, there will be more Christchurchs and no amount of PR will be able to stop its effects.
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csa rally - By:Andrew Chalmers from Queensland, Australia on March 24, 2019 @ 11:11 pm2
We've been dumped on again. - By:Peter Butler from NSW, Australia on April 7, 2019 @ 1:38 amThe 'superdad protests', although heavily critcised, seemed to stop the erosion of our rights.
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Overseas. You won't regret it. - By:Derek from Boston, Formerly oz on April 7, 2019 @ 1:38 amWhen court screws you over
When you've given up hope
When she's a money grabber but stops you seeing your kids
When you have a decent job...
Use your work experience, embellish a bit if you have to- have a good work mate to have your back and...
MOVE OVERSEAS
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Family court - By:brent from Auckland, New Zealand on November 7, 2019 @ 6:35 pmNever ever, ever give up. Never ever ever use a lawyer. you have a brain use it and buy books on the family court system, here or in Australia. Your biggest lifetime regret and sole draining prophecy will be that you gave in. Good luck People.
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410. Family court - By:brent from Auckland, New Zealand on March 23, 2019 @ 2:24 pm2
The CSA (Criminal Services Association) - By:Andrew from nsw, Aust on February 3, 2019 @ 9:32 pmI refused to pay Child support and did not lodge a tax refund for 15 years...... Well, after I walked out of the Court House with 14,000.00 worth of Fines up my Clakker, Thanks to the ATO, I now have a combined total of say 40k.... You may say, How is it working for you Tom....???? When the Justice System finally catches up with a Royal Commission into the CSA, finds its Underhanded methods a miss carriage (more like a Back Yard Abortion) of Justice, Im going to Use all the resources at my disposal to sue the ass off the Commonwealth.... And you may join me when that time comes, because the two parties involved in an agreement were debunked by the F...B.... CSA.
I feel much better now thats off my chest..
P.S... Please R.I.P all the poor bastards who just couldn't take it anymore.
Ill drink to them when the day comes...Cheers, Tom.
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Loosing my kids to lies, games, and titl - By:Leanna courtney from Sc, Us on February 3, 2019 @ 9:32 pmHi, my names is Leanna Courtney.
We where walked out on by my husband in dec of 2017.
6-10 before Christmas. And the system has failed to protect my kids from all this pain and instead have made it worst . My ex is a officer of Houston county GA, I have reached out to his captain, and major with little feedback or even acknowledging that one of their own officers of the law can’t even honor the family court orders they have put in place. Our children are 5,3,1 . I have three kids, Jonathon Courtney ( my ex) use to have three kids too until he left us and told my oldest ( from a previous relationship but was raised knowing only Jonathan from 2mon-5) he would no longer be her dad and will not be getting her anymore . He took the youngest two from me in June. I have been fighting and fighting to bring my kids home. I feel ignored, nobody is listening . I’ve reached out to Greenville county, Pickens county, Houston county, Clark county, as soon as they here he’s a cop it doesn’t matter the facts or my children’s feelings! My kids have grown up together and all because this man wants to walk out to get his life together with a not so nice past record of treatment to our family. Nobody will listen. I didn’t have the money for a lawyer in the beginning, he hired attorney Brian Johnson who is the most corrupt, evil man. The true definition of corruption in our system we hear about . My family is a case number to the system, they have been dragging out this nightmare for way to long. My husband is a white police officer who is hiding behind is badge to keep our kids from eachother and myself . I am biracial, our kids are mixed.... I can’t help but wonder what roll that has to play when looking at him and I for parenting . How can a system come in and only know one side and take the kids away from the only parent who HAS NEVER WALKED OUT THAT DOOR!!!
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Reply to Suicide and CSA - By:Katrina from New South Wales, Australia on November 7, 2019 @ 6:39 pmAt the end of the Day, parent AND the court system are forgetting about the children and the parent to whom is incapable of holding a diplomatic view and being reasonable for what would be beneficial to the child, they are too focused on the whole "eye for an eye" and trash talking which again I agree, Parent alienation is a form of child abuse! I only hope the parent to whom is abusing the court system isnt doing so they are able to abuse the child without being found out!
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Suicide and CSA - By:Very sneaky from SA, Australia on June 17, 2019 @ 10:12 pmSuicide is rapidly increasing over the years, the perfect way for population control blaming the citizens themselves...
The family courts reward up to 65-80% of assets to women during separation,
DVO’s are carelessly rubber stamped by Magistrates without any sort of evidence now for financial and custodial leverage in the family courts. These Magistrates are supporting parental alienation which is a form of child abuse.
Fathers are stripped of their children; typically the Parental alienation child abuse is used.
The Child Support Agency nurtures the child abuse by rewarding mothers 100% money for 100% custody…
This drives Fathers into great debt , stripped of their children then hounded by CSA for more money.
It is a really sad system that’s pushing Fathers into a corner, I can easily see why people want out…
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CSA Understanding - By:Johnny from nsw, australia on February 3, 2019 @ 9:32 pmhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0XQHDWnzHc
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CS threshold - By:Lee from Victoria, Australia on September 15, 2019 @ 1:30 amI am a mother of 3 children, 2 who my ex husband claims child support from me. He is starting to lower his work hours to be able to claim more child support, lousy but obviously he has found a loop hole that benefits him as the payee. I understand I have no rights other than to lower my income by decreasing my work hours which I really do not want to do. I have the kids 50% of the time and feel I am being financially assaulted. What is the CSA payment threshold surely they can’t just keep taking more and more of my income?
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I beat csa.. I think?? - By:Nathan from Vic, Oz on March 6, 2019 @ 11:08 pmNow I'm in another state and it seems she doesn't even give a shit that she's never heard from me again anyway. I heard she's moved on with a new man and hopes I die so they can play family. So much for all the "what's best for our child" crap she gave me. So many lies she told about me to court.
After I moved and changed jobs CSA never got in touch again. I wanna get enough experience in my job here now so I can get a job overseas then I never have to worry about her or getting a random call from CSA again.
I think I've won against csa tho
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Penalised by other parent earning more - By:John from WA, Australia on October 18, 2018 @ 11:41 pmThe answer should be in your updated payment notice. If you are receiving $12,800 return on investment then at 8% you would have approximately $160,000 invested. I assume this is why you receive no benefits. Because your income is less than the Parenting Payment Single (PPS) amount of $19,568 and you are not on benefits then CSA assume you have other income that they do not know about. They may also know of your investment and expect you to adjust your finances so that you can access this money. In this situation they have apply the Fixed Annual Rate of Income to your assessment which is $1,416 annually ($118 monthly). This has nothing to do with how much your Ex is making. If you want to go back to the minimum rate of $35 a month (now $35.58) then increase your income to just above the PPS amount.
The answers are on the CSA Guides web site : http://guides.dss.gov.au/child-support-guide/2/4/2. If you are not working then you have plenty of time to study this information and apply it to your situation. If you do not then CSA is quite happy to send you broke.
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Abuse of family court against fathers - By:brent from Auckland, New Zealand on March 22, 2019 @ 4:24 am1
400. Penalised by other parent earning more - By:Rick from SA, Australia on August 8, 2018 @ 7:47 am6
CSA robbers - By:Marcus B from sa, Oz on August 9, 2018 @ 6:03 pmId be requesting proof and challenging everything. Only ever ask questions and make them perform the acts that bind them. Even then that's not enough unless they're in court and on the record. Otherwise they lie outa their arse! Don't tell them anything or ever talk to them on the phone unless you know how to handle yourself. In writing is best. All these agencies see us as enemies so treat them the same. This is war, never forget it.
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Child support, when does it stop - By:Rob from NSW, Australia on June 14, 2018 @ 1:51 am3
Brandon - By:Rudolph from Queensland, Australia on January 1, 2019 @ 7:16 pmIt was all about her. Mine was off with another woman. Go figure
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Brandon - By:Bill from SA, Australia on January 1, 2019 @ 7:16 pm2
Worried and Apprehensive - By:Brandon Douglas from Victoria, Australia on January 1, 2019 @ 7:16 pmMy ex and I separated a year ago. She stayed in the same house for another 2 months before moving out. In that time she contributed nothing in the way of food, comforting our kids during the situation etc. As well as abandoned our 3 kids (all under 14) with me while she rarely got home before midnight, sometimes not coming back at all. When she did leave she could have seen our kids every fortnight on the weekends but didn't want to see them for nearly another 2 months even then it was only for a day hear or there. She saw them on Boxing Day then not a word for nearly a month. Then she wanted to see them every fortnight on the weekend. Now she is adamant that she wants 50/50 shared custody. I have the kids in a great routine and are finally happy again (have been for 8 months). Our kids wouldn't mind spending overnight at her house, but don't want to live with her. I'm very worried that if she does get what she wants that our kids will be put through hell again, just to satisfy her 'wants'. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
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Abuse of family court against fathers - By:brent matches from auckland , New zealand on August 9, 2018 @ 12:35 pm5
Canadian 'Justice'. - By:Edward from B.C., Canada on January 1, 2019 @ 7:16 pmThe item is quite lengthy but everything is true, and, I should add, this case has been brought to the attention of both the Canadian Prime Minister and the Canadian Minister of Justice, both of whom have ignored it, hoping, I would assume, that they would prefer that it 'just go away'.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1HvTP8osB_KQwUsBjCKH42pLv_NM5R_4C
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Lawyers. - By:Brian from British Columbia, Canada on January 1, 2019 @ 7:16 pmYou have a gun with only two bullets. What should you do?
Shoot the lawyer ..... twice.
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How much history do we need? - By:Helen D from WA, Australia on January 1, 2019 @ 7:17 pm10
390. Hey :Katrina Gloster - By:SG 66 from Western Australia, Australia on January 1, 2019 @ 7:17 pmThis bias system of lawyers and supervision services is a cash cow for the blood suckers that live on everyone's dis pare,.
What a f'n joke the whole thing.
How many of us have had the most despicable things said about us and everyone believed it??
No wonder 7 men a day were popping themselves off in 2015 HEY??
The road toll is??
we dont matter, just rememberthat.
Be strong and don't do anything f'n stupid that your kids will be fuck up for ever with.
Remember they still love you without any conditions.
Be strong and FUCK them! The one's that want to hurt you.
I'm here 0419926521
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Discrimination - By:Katrina Gloster from ACT, Australia on January 1, 2019 @ 7:17 pmNot only am I suffering from alienation from my daughters father but he has such massive support that im suffering from bullying based on lies! I did almost commit suicide twice, my daughter is not only sad it breaks me but he cant see or feel how broken she is.
Ii came from a broken home, I hated every minute that I had to hear or pick one side, and the one thing I didn't want my daughter to suffer from, she now is!
My best friend, he suffered from this, inface so many men have I want to help stop the hurt, not only from the parent who is being excluded but more importantly the CHILD/CHILDREN
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THERE ARE MANY WAYS TO SKIN A CAT - By:Give me a call from NSW , AUSTRALIA on February 5, 2018 @ 12:16 pm3
I have crunched the numbers.. - By:jono from NSW, aust on June 7, 2018 @ 10:38 pm1
GIVE ME A CALL JOHNO - By:FOR REAL from NSW, AUSTRALIA on February 5, 2018 @ 12:16 pm5
csa hope - By:Rick from sa, aust on June 7, 2018 @ 10:38 pmSecondly, why pay for kids that don't legally belong to you? Kids are property in the legal world, and property that you and I don't own? If your don't own the property, you're not liable for it. The state or crown, whatever you prefer, own your kids LEGALLY.
Ask yourself, if DHS or whatever the child services are called in your state wants to take your kids away from the custody of a parent, they can and do so legally..yeah. How come? Simply, kids are state property.
So don't volunteer payments unless you want to and certainly only if you can afford to. Out of necessity and survival you must feed yourself first.
Hopefully this will get people thinking. Remember, those that own your kids [being property] own everything in the PUBLIC Trusts and Domain, including anything to do with your name, ie. bank accounts, your employer's company, those plastic notes we call money and so on. In fact our owners own everything and mislead us into thinking we do. If that doesn't piss people off I don't know what will !!!
If anyone thinks differently, please share your views.
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Im over this... - By:jono from NSW, aust on February 4, 2018 @ 12:37 pm3
By:Kris from nsw, ZOG on February 4, 2018 @ 12:38 pmTom, this method has worked to some degree. Few year ago you could still talk to those maggots face to face at centerlink .
But because of all the abuse they copped they went underground, hiding behind their phones and pre scripted answers, learnt at team meetings and training sessions. So you might as well not call those drones.
Most of the time they dont know what they're doing cause they don't know the legislation, which is not their requirement anyway. By design all they can do is feed(steer) you to the solicitors to keep the machine (family flaw) oiled and your pockets empty.
Revolution dreaming...
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CSA - By:Tom from NSW, Australia on February 4, 2018 @ 12:38 pm11
my experience - By:ITSJIM from vic, Australia on February 13, 2019 @ 1:45 am- 80/20 inc super is the starting point, get used to it. you will lose most of what you have ever worked for and pay child support.
- if mediation has failed, and she has lawyered up. its too late. Lose any thought of people being amicable and fair. Its now a streetfight. Her lawyer will want to settle out of court, getting the best initial settlement, binding agreements and majority Custody, its the standard playbook. Intervention orders are standard. you wont see your kids for 4 months, and pay thousands for psychologist reports to squash the lies that have been made against you. its the “gamesmanship of divorce”.
- Dont trust lawyers, they are NOT your friend or care about your situation. Think of them as hired guns with a law degree who work on commission. Your ex’s lawyer = get as much as they can from you. Your lawyer = limit the damage. Its not in their best financial interest to settle fast. The more messy, the more $$$. give your lawyers clear instructions - they work for you. if they dont listen, or you feel are not sympathetic or aligned to your cause, find a new one.
- SETTLE QUICK. Dont let it drag on into an expensive war. it will affect your mental health and the chance for you to rebuild. Demand a court date be booked ASAP by your lawyer. You can always settle in the meantime or at the initial hearing, but what this does is give a fixed point in time where closure commences. BIG psychological bonus.
- Dont discuss your divorce or situation with anyone at work. with all the crap you will be going through, there will be a drop in your performance and mental state. Dont draw attention to it. Its easy to blame the guy going through a divorce.
- If you are going to settle out of court - Dont accept any binding agreements (eg paying private school fees, additional monthly lump sums $$$ or costs to be excluded from child support. You need to be able financially rebuild and have a life. If you lose your job, you will still be expected to cover costs of what you agreed to in a binding agreement until a change to consent orders is approved. Remember you are going to be paying $$$ in child support taking into account both your income, and your ex's lack of income. This is money to go to your children - not the holiday/hair/nail fund.
- Be nice to CSA. its hard i know. they receive tonnes of abuse. If your nice they will give you hints and advice. They know the system is broken.
Finally, Stay mentally strong, this process breaks the best of us. Nearly broke me. the number of nights i spent crying due to been kept from my kids due to “the standard” intervention order. But it does get better. Which brings me to my final point.
Get on with your life, do all those things that you were prevented from. Join a sport club, get a hobby, meet new people. Dont lock yourself up and get depressed. Dont try and cling on to what you had. Move on and enjoy life with your children (if you get access), make the best of a bad situation. It will take you on average 3 years to rebuild. i am 1.5YR in, just starting to see to see the light at the end of the tunnel. This is your chance to be free and the world is a wonderful place. Dont be glass half empty. Hang in there!
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380. Ending the Pathology of "Parental Aliena - By:David Farmer from Herts, United Kingdom on February 2, 2019 @ 2:24 amhttps://www.change.org/p/the-american-psychological-association-ending-parental-alienation-pathology-for-all-children-everywhere?utm_campaign=fb_dialog&utm_medium=email&utm_source=signature_receipt&post_id=1548380715269351#_=_
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Freedom - By:Pikey200 from Victoria, Australia on January 1, 2019 @ 7:17 pm2
right on mr J - By:Mick from Vic, Australia on January 31, 2018 @ 3:48 pm3
Is there Hope - By:James from NSW, Australia on January 1, 2018 @ 7:26 amBe informed here is the parliamentary inquiry and the response.
Inquiry
https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/House/Social_Policy_and_Legal_Affairs/Child_Support_Program
Response
https://www.humanservices.gov.au/organisations/about-us/budget/budget-2017-18/families/government-response-parliamentary-inquiry-child-support-program-implementation
Find and Sign as many petitions as you can. You will be amazed that we are not alone and that many payers of CS have the same exact concerns. Start here.
https://www.gopetition.com/petitions/government-review-of-the-child-support-system-make-it-fair.html
I have had my long days and sleepless nights worrying about child support usually after my ex contacts CSA and changes the situation to get more money.
One of the most active online communities relating to positive reforms of the Child Support Regime is the Facebook group – Child Support Australia – Time for Reform and Fairness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyrtKUoC-j8&t=3s
Good luck to us all
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Hit where it hurts - By:David Kallenbach from Queensland, Australia on December 29, 2017 @ 8:26 pmCivil disobedience hijacked by the feminist lobby is praised by the courts and parliament. When men try it it is termed obstructing justice.
Lobby your parliamentarians and your unions. Begin with the builders labourers and the unions at the ports.
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Need for unity and reform - By:David Kallenbach from Queensland, Australia on December 29, 2017 @ 8:26 pmThe current Family Law and the courts it has spawned is a system that finds legitimacy in the same morality, and logic that allowed Apartheid and Sharia to exist with impunity for all these years. It is legal. It is backed by legislation.
There are several men's groups advocating for the same causes as Father's 4 Justice but all of who appear divided and unable to articulate their positions in a cogent and effective way.
I am not writing with a view to condemning or unfairly criticising anyone or any group in this field but to point out what is instead missing in what is potentially a very powerful lobby out there.
Whats worthy of criticism though is the absence of practitioners amongst practicing male legal practitioners, unlike their female counterparts (some of it explainable through the heavily discriminatory practices of Legal Aid and other government agencies) and a political lobby to take this cause to our lawmakers in parliament.
If mens groups agree to meet and to speak with one voice, both sides of the great divide in government will and must listen or be held captive to the powerful women's lobby which in fact is funded by government.
The women's lobbies receive several millions of dollars each year in unioon and government funding and grants to fund academics (mainly women) to write scurrilous thesis supporting the hatred of men and the stereotyping of men which family court judges then make references to as erudite pieces of scholarship to support their distorted judgments against men and children.
The Liberals / Nationals and the Labour movement cannot in fact exist without men. The Labour party created the Family courts yet many men in "their wisdom" mainly disenfranchised fathers continue to support the Labour party through their unions (the lifeblood of the Labour party) in the most idiotic form of self destruction.
The economy continues to suffer from the results of the unequal distribution of the family nest egg and the burden of responsibility for the welfare of children in support of feminist theories supported by an Apartheid type of legislation and the general idiocy of men.
If you are serious as men and aas responsible fathers, then let your mates know about this and use this forum to generate ideas.
What is needed is for all mens groups to merge and put the union movement and government and the opposition on notice that men are on the march.
The purpose of stuffing more and more incompetent women into the largest employer in the country and elsewhere with 'affirmative action' policies (the public service) is to stack the union movement and to render men and their power there impotent and ineffective.
There are male lawyers willing to assist but yo need to be organized.
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Child Support - By:Jason TeWhaiti from WA, Australia on May 22, 2018 @ 1:02 am2
Family Law Reform ~ 2018 - By:David Farmer from Herts, United Kingdom on February 2, 2019 @ 2:24 am